1

1

I had problems leaving a message last night.  Is it working today?

Things seem to be working today.  I was having problems posting messages last night (frustratingly losing them not once but twice), hopefully there’ll be no more hiccups. 

I hope everyone enjoyed the book?  I enjoyed it immensely even though Hagar was at times a difficult character to warm up to.  She didn’t have a very happy marriage, and even though Bram was handsome, do you think that was her only draw towards him?  Or was it to upset her father?  Sometimes I feel like I read too quickly and miss details. 

Hopefully Kari Skogland will have an opportunity to join our discussion.  Kari directed the film adaptation and wrote the screenplay.  I’d love to hear her insights into the novel and find out what it was like making it into a film.  Yesterday I was listening to an interview with an author and he said that he felt when a film was made of a book, it tended to lose its literary qualities (am paraphrasing here) since films naturally pay attention to the action primarily.  I wonder if Kari agrees?

Danielle

It appears to be working.

Not sure where or how to start.

I do agree that Hagar was a hard character to embrace. But that must speak to the author’s skill as she has successfully brought forth a person who you dislike, but grow to care about. I cried when she related the tragedy of losing her son. I could not have done that if I did not find some redeeming quality about her which would allow such sympathy. It is sad that it was not until the end of her life that she even considered allowing such sentimentality for herself. But you have to admit, she stayed true to herself throughout it all. You have to admire such tenacity.

I found her not only prideful, but very selfish; a character I would normally turn away from. But Laurence’s story wasn’t simply about Hagar, and this is what kept me coming back to read more. It was the way she developed the relationships.

And this is what touched me the most about this book and its characters. Not once do I recall ever reading where one person said to another, “I love you.” In fact, I do not think the word ‘love’ was used very much at all.

Not that I doubt that there was love - only that I was struck by how it was expressed, if at all.

Can pride be so powerful an emotion that it weakens, and at times, overcomes all others - even one as powerful as love? Hagar had her own ideas about ‘weakness’. It has made me think upon my own foibles, and wonder if perhaps I am being (1) too hard on myself, and more importantly, (2) too hard on others. How is this thinking affecting my own relationships with those I care for?

Just a few thoughts. I would love to hear what other people think.

Seems to be working now.

When I started the book I didn’t think I would like it because I didn’t like Hagar at all. By the end I still didn’t like her but I at least felt sympathy for her. She tried so hard and was so well meaning, but she can’t force others to fit the mold she has made for them and it all ends up so sad. I liked the book very much in spite of Hagar’s prickliness.

J.C.--I agree--Laurence is a marvelous author.  Although Hagar was (and I like Stefanie’s word) prickly--I never felt that I wanted to set the book aside (as I have lately with other books).  I did feel quite sympathetic towards her.  There were moments in the book where she knew she was being rude and inside thought why was she being that way and I could empathize--at times I’ve been grouchy and know I’m being snappish and think the same thing--why am I passing off my bad mood to someone else.  Love is not a word she seemed to use much and I don’t think it was a word that her family used towards her.  She had such a staunch upbringing with only two brothers and a father who didn’t really show a lot of emotion (not of the happy, loving sort anyway) or affection.  I wonder if she was capable of showing it to others--at least physically.  I think she might have wanted to, but never seemed to be able to.

Danielle

Stefanie--I had the same reaction when I started the book--I wondered at first what I had gotten myself into, but as I read it became more and more interesting.  This was such a realistic portrait of a woman complete with all her foibles.  I felt bad for her son John--she didn’t seem to want to let him make his own decisions--wrong or not--even when he was 30 years old.  It seems there comes a time when you need to let your children live their own lives.  It must have been terribly painful for her when he and Arlene were killed.

Danielle

I thought it was amazing the way Laurence let you figure out just how difficult Hagar is by showing people’s reactions to her, rather than telling you in some more direct way.  For me, the first-person narration made this such a great novel—we get Hagar’s self-justifications and evasions juxtaposed with the other characters’ horrified reactions to her.  I don’t think Hagar is an unreliable narrator in the sense that she lies to us, but the novel does lead us to question what she tells us and her interpretations of things. 

I also loved the way Laurence used the flashbacks to show how out of it Hagar is—every time she “wakes up” from a flashback, she’s got herself in some difficult situation.  This reminds us again and again of what it’s like to be old and drifting in and out of awareness.

Danielle, she was devastated when John died, wasn’t she? She couldn’t even cry and says she felt like she was turned to stone. To so wrap yourself in a child, even an adult child, and what you want him to be and do, to pin your hopes, whatever they might be on him and then lose him in a tragic accident--it must have felt like she had lost everything.

Dorothy, I liked the first-person narration too. I don’t think the book would have been as well done from a different p.o.v. I think having Hagar be the one to tell her story is what allows Laurence to convince us to feel sympathy towards her. We can see Hagar’s outside and inside, her contradictions and her floundering and failings. I didn’t really pay attention to the situations Hagar “woke up” in after her flashbacks until you mentioned them. I’m glad you noticed and pointed them out.

I thought the first person narration was really effective and powerful, too.  The book wouldn’t have been as good otherwise.  It’s interesting the point you make, Dorothy--seeing people’s reactions to what she does makes you think what a mean woman she is, but then on the flip side, being part of her thought process and feeling what she feels also makes you so sympathetic towards her, too.  She knows she’s being nasty and then she feels bad about it afterwards.

And don’t you just feel horrible for Marvin and Doris?  You know they are doing their best for her, but how do you deal with becoming the parent in a sense to your own parent?  And then Marvin had to know how much she loved John--that had to hurt, but he still took care of her.  Of course what other option was there after what happened to John.  Of course I’m not entirely sure John would have taken care of her in her old age.  There would have been a lot of resentment.

Danielle

I loved this book. I wasn’t too sure after I read some of the reviews on Amazon. Several mentioned how it’s a boring book about the thoughts of an old woman. Well, I think the first person narration was perfect for this novel. It made me feel for Hagar and helped me understand her.

Danielle, I too felt bad for Marvin but to be honest, Doris was the one I felt the most for. Her husband couldn’t even do anything to help her deal with his mother. It’s almost like he gave up and wanted to put all responsibility on Doris.

I just think what a difficult situation that is on how to deal with an aging parent.

I did feel bad for Marvin and Doris but especially Doris. I can understand Marvin’s reticence to deal with his mother. She loved his brother more and now here he is left to the duty of taking care of the woman who never once said I love you to him. And poor Doris, her frustration must be endless, caring for a woman who isn’t even her own mother. But yet, she manages a certain compassion. So often, even these days, the care of aging parents falls to the daughters or the wives of the sons in the family. When the parent becomes the child it puts such a strain on everyone since a lifetime’s roles are reversed and no one ever wants or chooses for that to happen.

OOooo, so many things I want to say! First, I took to Hagar right off. She’s the kind of character I’d love to spend pages and pages with but would run in the opposite direction if she ever came near me. I know, academically, what a hardship it must have been to live with her but her will and sense of self is so strong and she’s so charismatic and that’s what made the book one of my top ten novels ever.

Her attraction to Bram was a puzzle. I theorised that perhaps his audacity appealed to her? He dared to do and say things to her that no one else would even attempt, it seemed, and that attracted her even though it angered her. She seems to like such spirited persons the most even though, on the flip side, she cannot deal with their independence or autonomy once they become connected in anyway. What a disastrous combination of character traits.

She had other contradictory impulses too. On the one hand she’s all gumption and and Currie pride yet, on the other hand, like her father, she’s really always worried about what other people are doing or saying, both in their own life and about her own. She won’t go to church because of Bram, she won’t let him take her to the hospital when she’s in labour the second time around, things like that. When things are desperate she puts such matters aside but still....And wasn’t it ironic the way she ended up meddling in her son’s efforts to get married the way her own father did? That was strange too, because I think she was 26 (right?) when she wanted to marry Bram and her father said she was still too young, which seems like a ridiculous argument, especially in those days when surely it was the norm to marry even younger? And then John is 30 (!) and she and Lottie still feel they have some jurisdiction.

Maybe it’s their British background? I remember reading English novels from around that time (Ivy Compton-Burnett, for instance) and there did seem to be that strange family dynamic in certain social classes where, regardless of how old the kids were, if they weren’t married they still fell under the parent’s provenance.

Imani, I too wasn’t very sure why she wanted to marry Bram. Aside from going against her father’s wishes, I wondered too if it was because he was the first man to really notice her? I’m curious if she had any fears of never marrying.

I so regret not having had the time to read this book, but I’m loving the discussion. It won’t surprise you all that I’d really like to know more about Hagar as a mother. She seems to have been cold and distant but to have actually loved John very deeply. Is she simply repeating the patterns of her own relationship to her father? It’s often said that wives send husbands messages via the way they interact with their children. What message does Hagar’s care of her sons send out? And if anyone could point me to the chapter in which John dies, I’d be very grateful!